A sound tech posed the question "what you think of guitarists putting reverb and delay on, rather than us doing the processing?"
I don't have a problem when a guitarist uses reverb or delay for a particular service or song as long as it sounds good. That being said, there are several factors to consider;
1. Does the guitarist have any idea what they are doing? They might think an effect with tons of reverb sounds really cool (and it might) but it might not work for the song in which they are playing. They might not have any idea what they are doing (i call this young and in love) and therefore think "more reverb or delay equals better tone."
2. Does the guitarist have access to the house mix so they can hear how their tone sounds in the overall mix? You can't keep adding pepper unless you occasionally taste the chili.
3. Does the guitarist have a better ear for reverb and delay than the sound tech?
I like taking as much control over sound as possible. I also know there are times when it's better for the guitarist to take control over certain aspects of their sound. One guy runs his acoustic through a POD XT Live. He sends a signal with a better tone than if we just pulled from his guitar. However, as far as reverb / delay, he doesn't add anything. Therefore, the sound tech adds in what is necessary. When I play acoustic, I run through an effects box (lr baggs di) that gives me the perfect tone that doesn't need reverb added – really, it's that sweeeeeet.
I don't think there is a simple answer of "the guitarist should control reverb/delay" or "the sound tech should control reverb / delay." Much of it comes down to the need to add it, and the way in which it's used. For example, I've had times when I've asked a guitarist to turn down their reverb and then I added some back in the mix. The reason was they were sending too much. I don't know if it's because they didn't hear it in the house mix, they didn't dial it in for that particular song, or they thought it was perfect when they practiced it alone.
Asking kindly "can you turn down the reverb or [insert other effect]?" is usually successfully. If you are dealing with a tone-junky, then you might have a much harder time. "It sounds perfect with this song; I worked on it alone last night for an hour." So they worked on their tone – but it was not with the rest of the band and it was at home so it's not going to have the same sound as in the house mix.
Having talked with tone-junkies, the best thing you can do is meet them some time and ask about tone and guitar effects. Let them educate you in how guitar effects work from their point of view. Then, after you have established a respectful relationship, you can teach them a bit about the different factors that contribute to mixing a guitar in a song. At that point, as long as they are equally respectful, you are now on more equal footing in their mind to make suggestions. The next thing you know, THEY are asking YOU "how does my distortion/crunch/fuzz/reverb/whatever sound in the mix?"
If you are lucky, you've got guitarists who know exactly how to dial in a particular amount of reverb or delay and adjust it on their effects pedals for each song. This makes your job easier. Even if you are blessed with this situation, I still suggest you ask them to teach you about their effects and tone controls. The more we learn from each other, the more we respect each other and the easier it is to work towards a common goal.
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I'm Chris Huff and I've been working behind a mixer for over twenty years. Since 2008, I've been helping other sound techs learn all about the art of church audio through behindthemixer.com.
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My opinion is this is out of the scope of the audio tech, other than offering an opinion. I believe it falls to the music director to tell the guitar player what his tone should sound like. My approach as engineer is to reproduce the audio coming from the band, with just enough FX to enhance the blend. Major delays or long verbs run a high risk of distracting from the song itself.
Amen. It is complex, and totally depends on the mix, the setting, the style, etc. This is where it is *vital* to have good communication between the engineer and the team. If the band knows that you’re on their side, that you’re part of the team, and that it’s not about control but about making them sound great, and about giving the congregation the best possible environment in which to worship and engage, then they usually won’t mind turning down the juice, or giving you a dry signal in addition to wet.
Generally, the only time I get a ‘verbed signal from stage is if an electric player is using a particular pedal for a grungy verb, or a nice classic spring ‘verb that’s also quiet (like a Twin with a clean tank). Otherwise, it’s nice and dry, with maybe some EQ.
You’re right there is no right answer. Every situation is different.
Most techs I know, know what a good sound is, but not necessarily how to tweak it correctly when it comes to the massive amounts of pedals some guitarists have. Of course, some do. But overall, I think I agree with Phil. It should fall to the worship leader to make the call, and the necessary adjustments made based on that call.
Of course, the more control the tech has, the better. But some things are better left to the musician.
The biggest thing I think is to have that relationship with the band. In my case, the worship leader asks me about the electric’s tone and such. I’ll give my opinion and he acts on it if he agrees. If the effects are way out of bounds to the rest of the mix, I will talk to the player myself. I’ve only had to do that a couple of times, and they comply. So just make sure you have a good working relationship with them, and they will work with you.
Of course more delay and reverb equals better tone!!
hehehe But seriously, in my humble experience, delay and reverb only equals better tone when it is used very low in the mix. The ‘tone’ should be coming from the guitar and amp, without too many effects; whether from the guitarist, or from the soundguy.
I would also say that if delay/reverb is being used as just a subtle tone enhancer, then it’s cool for it to be coming from the soundboard. But as a guitarist, when I’m using delay timed to the song, and turning it on and off constantly depending on the part, that needs to be done on my own.
You make a great point that guitarists need to know how to use their effects as well. Most definitely. And the same thing goes for sound techs, too. I played in a band one time where we did this show, and the sound guy was all stoked because he had just bought this new effects processor. And afterwards, he was like, ‘Guys! Listen to this recording I just did of you guys!’ And it was so drenched in delay, you couldn’t tell one instrument from another. And we were like, ‘Um, did it sound like this in the house?’ And he was all, ‘Ya! Don’t those effects just add so much?’ Ya. Bad times. Unfortunately, not all sound techs and not all guitarists ‘get’ effects.
Anyway, cool post! :-)