I received an email with these questions, "How should you EQ guitars (or other instruments) when you have more than one of them on stage? How do you make them distinctive?" Let's look at this common issue and what you can do.
The question is in reference to acoustic guitars so with that in mind.
How do you EQ a guitar?
Acoustic guitars do NOT all sound the same. The sounds can vary based on the brand of guitar strings, the gauge (diameter) of the guitar strings, the type of wood used, as well as the electronics used inside the guitar. Even the age of the guitar can make a difference in the sound.
Therefore, the first thing I do is listen to the guitar without it being plugged into the system. I'm listening for the dominate frequencies. For example, I remember a guitarist who brought in a brand new Breedlove guitar. It sounded bright and clear. There wasn't much in the way of low end frequencies. Mid's and High's dominated with a bias towards the High frequencies.
Knowing the natural sound of the guitar, I focused on those sounds when I EQ'd the instrument. This meant making sure those mid's and high's were brought out. I wasn't going to try giving it a more bassy sound if I knew that wasn't strength of the guitar.
*That being said, when EQ'ing instruments, I also want those instruments to sit in the mix well. For example, if there was another instrument that was strong in those high frequencies, I'd cut the high's a little in one of the instruments so as to separate them out so they didn't work against each other. I'd also want the right instrument to be right focus in the mix.
What about a second guitar?
Again, listen to the natural strengths of the guitar and focus on bringing those sounds out in the mix. One guitar might be bright, another might be mellow, and another could be warm. Bring that sound into the mix.
What if the acoustic guitars sound the same?
This is where the fun begins. You have three options;
1. Panning. Using left/right panning, you can create a perceived audio separation in the mix. For example, pan the guitar on the right side of the stage a little to the right and the guitar on the left, a little to the left. You should know that in rooms that are wider than they are deeper, if you pan too far in one direction or another, people on one side of the room might not hear that panned instrument.
2. EQ separation. Cut the mid's or low mid's in one guitar. Cut the high's a little in the other guitar. It really helps to have heard a professional recording of the song so you can hear how each instrument is EQ'd.
3. Talk with the guitarists. In the case of two rhythm guitars, suggest capo usage, bar chords, in short any way one instrument can play chords with a different color, chord formation, and/or octave usage. The short-cut capo* is a great way to do this. These capos permit the player to play the same chord, let's say a G-chord, higher up on the neck of the guitar so some notes are in a different octave range.
Regarding chord color, a major chord is made up of the 1-3-5 notes of the chord. A C-chord would have notes C-E-G. However, you can get a slightly different sound by dropping the 3 so the chord is only C and G notes. There are a variety of ways to get color changes by just using minor chord formation changes…or in the case of the capo, major chord formation changes.
*I suggest passing a site on to the guitarists you know. It has free video tutorials on how to use the short cut capo. Check out Randall Williams' how-to video. When I played on a worship team, I used a short-cut capo because it gave us the sound separation we needed and really enhanced the songs. These videos are what convinced me to try the capo.
Knowing your limitations
There is only so much you and I can do with the sounds presented to us. The arrangement of the songs as defined by the musicians can be the difference between an ok song and a great one. And arrangement isn't something we can control. But, like I mentioned in point 3, we can use our knowledge to educate the musicians so they can give us the best sound possible.
Question(s): How do you separate out similar guitars? Have you ever made suggestions to musicians? How did that turn out?
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I'm Chris Huff and I've been working behind a mixer for over twenty years. Since 2008, I've been helping other sound techs learn all about the art of church audio through behindthemixer.com.
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Sorry to revive an old post, but this is something that drives me nuts.
You have two guitars. Why play the same thing?
There is NO reason to have two (or more) guitars both strumming away at the same first position cowboy chords. In fact, there are lots of good reasons NOT to – phase cancellation and muddying up the mix being two.
So, guitarists (and i be one), during rehearsal, figure out your PARTS. One of you can strum the cowboy chords while the other can play barre chords higher up the neck., or even up past the 12th fret on electrics. That simple technique avoids TONS of problems and provides a bigger overall sound.
Excellent post, sharing with the guitarists on my team!
What brings better results? An acoustic guitar plugged into a DI box or a mic’ed up acoustic amp?
Danny, there are many factors that go into getting a great guitar sound. The best place to start is with the guitar itself.
I find a time when church sanctuary is empty and I hook up the guitar to the house system and move the guitar to the center of the sanctuary. Now, the guitarist can play and tweak their settings. That could be via an onboard EQ, upscale DI box, or even a digital effects system like the PODxt live. The mixer EQ is set at the default settings because I want the guitar and guitar gear to focus on getting the best sound.
Once that sound is tweaked to your liking and the liking of the guitarist, then you can focus on how it's brought into the system. If it sounds great as is, using a DI, then go for it. Or try an acoustic amp and see how it sounds.
The key is that you have to get the guitarist to get the best sound out of their instrument / effects BEFORE you look at other factors.
Great question!
Ah okay. I see what you mean. Thanks man, especially for the quick response! I really appreciate it.
Could the same be said of any instrument (electric guitar, keyboards, etc.)
After you have it sounding good, what is the process to bring it into the rest of the mix? Do you take notes on where the instrument fits sonically?
Sorry I’m a keyboardist who plays some acoustic guitar (rhythm) and really wishes he knew more to communicate with the sound engineer what I am striving for sonically.
A good mix is like saying you want to go out to eat for “good food”. Lots of interpretation in that statement.
Bill, I think you just picked my next article topic! I'll have it up tomorrow or this weekend. Danny hit on a great point and you, as a musician, are bringing up some other thoughts that I need to cover.
I gotta run, thanks to both of your for your posts today!
The more I think about it, the more I think a response fits here.
The same source-sound thinking applies to instrument that have some type of sound control. For example:
1. Electric or acoustic guitar are perfect for this as the sound the musician is going for is the sound they want the audience to hear. Therefore, it's best to judge that sound against the house mains and not the monitors.
2. Keyboards have a lot of instrument sounds built in. Therefore, a keyboard player should recognize they can use different instrument sounds in each song. In focusing on a specific sound, they should explorer how that sound in the sanctuary vs. on stge through monitors. They don't need to drag the keyboard to the sanctuary if they can have someone else play while they listen.
As a sound guy, I want each singer giving me their best vocals. This includes proper mic usage. I want guitarists who have the best sound coming from their rig. It's better they give me a good sound than make me try to clean it up. I was keyboardists who know which pad(?) is best for each song in our environment – and against the other instruments that are playing. That more of an arrangement issue but it's important.
Mixing then with the best sounds is like cooking chili. Last night I had my chili base down and then pulled our my spices, extracts, and other ingredients to then give it the flavor I wanted.
The best way to get the chili taste I want is by trying other chili, especially a similiar chili and by knowing the properties of my ingredients. For example, brown sugar is a great way to cut the heat if I've made it too hot. It also adds a subtle sweetness.
In mixing, the best way you can tell the sound guy what you want is give him a copy of a professional reocrding of the same song. Then he/she knows the sound you are targeting. The tech can then tweak your sound as necessary. They might also have to tweak it a little so it balances with the other instruments.
Mixing is not making each instrument sound great and then mixing the volumes. Mixing is mixing each instrument so it sounds great in relation to the other instruments so the song carries the emotional appeal the song is trying to evoke.
Chris,
I think I’d start where you ended. Talk with the guitarists and/or your band/worship leader. The more work that is done on the source end, the better it is for everyone. I’m privileged to work with a worship pastor who also has a recording studio, so he knows sound and how things play well or poorly together. We work together in planning and during rehearsals on arranging instruments and after 3+ years working together, we know what each other is thinking a lot too. We try not to put musicians on stage to play together that don’t compliment each other well. We know who can listen for their own part, who needs to be lead clearly, and who needs to be given space. This makes the mix side of things easier. I know this post is about the mix side of things but at some point we become a band aid when we really need to fix the problems.
EQ and panning are both powerful tools in the repair mode though, and you addressed them well. One other method I employ is the fader. There are times where I just pick the one that sounds better and feature it. I have one leader here that plays acoustic rhythm, she likes to schedule two other acoustics and an electric when she plays. She told me herself, just pull my guitar back in the mix unless I’m the only one playing. I end up with a lead acoustic and a rhythm electric & acoustic… plus her’s, which really just exists in the IEM mixes to be followed. I certainly don’t mute or pull those guitars out of FOH completely but they sit in back for sure.
Just my two cents.
And a valuable two cents at that!
Great music comes when everyone works as a team and when topics like musician choice and arrangement aren't left in the wings – pun not intended but enjoyed.
The point about the fader usage is great as well. Volume control…and I forgot to mention that why? lol
a thought…
Should the lead sound tech be involved with the choosing of the worship team? (in terms of who should play together and who shouldn’t be playing at all, or w/e)
We use our ears so much more then anyone else in the church. We know EXACTLY what things sound like, when they sound good and bad, what matches and compliments and what doesn’t. We know that John’s voice works great with Jane as a leader, but vice versa doesn’t work at all….
Because of that, how much should we be involved with the choosing of the worship team, or should we just pass along our opinions?
For me, one of our leaders is basically deaf, and he seems to enjoy leading so he won’t ask to back down, but I know (and many others too) that he really shouldn’t be leading because he can’t hear and can’t come in time (worlds worst worship leader type person lol). I’m not in charge of the schedule, but I have no idea how to give my opinion of “he should not be leading! backup vocal ok, but not lead!”
its late, maybe I’m just rambling lol
but I guess the questions is just “What can be our role in choosing the worship team?” maybe its a topic for you Chris!
I am the tech & production director at my church and work very closely with our worship director. He definitely leads the charge and has the ultimate say but we listen to each other a lot when putting services together.
Hey at my church we have a panning knob. I talked to my Worship Director about putting certain musicians into the left speaker and the other in the right speaker to make it sound less clashing. But he told me that our speakers are mono so even though the idea was great, it wouldn’t work. I’ve decided to try it to see what it does exactly because I’ve never touched that knob before. I found that if I put more into the L side, that channel becomes louder. If I do it for my R side, it basically decreases the volume. So does this mean that the right speaker isn’t working? My church’s sanctuary is a small square shaped room, and could fit about 175 people. Am I just not hearing it correctly? My soundboard has a “Mono” button and I tried it with it turned off. I’m just wondering if it’s broken.
On the flipside though, panning certain speakers help A LOT because their too quiet when they talk.
Some systems are set up as mono sends and not stereo. I see people make this decision based on the size of the room. So in some cases, panning isn't an option.
It sounds like your system is mono and as is typical, the speakers are getting their signal from the left channel of your desk. Panning things left in that situation is just turning them up basically.
In general stereo mixing is a great way to help with a mix and blending, however, you have to be careful that everyone is in the stereo field.
I actually ran into a bit of an issue yesterday….
I didn’t realize 2 things….
1. on the gigrac 1000st, theres a button that makes the system go from a “sterei” setting to a “monitor – main” setup. Last week I didn’t do sound for once (played in a sax quartet at another church) and so my replacement must have hit that button at some point (it was 100% working when I set up the system the night before) which caused him and the worship team multiple problems and I didn’t realize it until….
2. the pan on one channel was all the way to the right…no idea if I accidentally did that one instead of a different one when I wasn’t looking at the board but turning the knobs…..but it caused sound to only go out the monitors….hmmm….why did was it doing this? that made no sense? oh wait….check the button mentioned above……yep….
lol…so ya…always check your settings if you run into a weird problem….
But yesterday was so much fun at Church! It was basically the first time I’ve ever done a “kids play” type thing, with kids going up to the mics and speak for a minute, then they all sing and repeat….it was great….Setup before the service was crazy as I will still doing some setup as the kids were practicing…but thats alright….I told the mics about proper mic technique and I swear that they are better at using the mics then what they regular worship teams do sometimes! Its awesome when they listen to you and not just crawl all over you!
One played electric guitar, then another played the upright piano for offertory (not together) and another played her electric piano and sang along at the same time….she’s probably one of my favourites (its not my kid so its ok to have a favourite right? lol)….but I’m very proud of how I was able to make her sound….add some reverb to the voice…too much at the beginning….but I got it…..and the voice vs piano settings were perfect….I don’t think I’ve ever mixed to the point that I proudly said afterwards “Thats perfect!” lol
It was just one of those Sundays that I said “And thats why I love doing sound! BRING IT ON!!” lol
And tested out all my new mics too! We’ve had sm58′s forever and their as old as old can be….they gradually just started breaking / cables following out / etc….so I went from 6 down to 3 in the last year (see some of my other posts for more info like the portable setup one)….I went to the board 2 months ago and said we need new ones….they said lets wait till January if we can….I said I’ll try but I’ll look around…I found that the Behringer XM8500′s are supposed to be just as good and sounds the same as the sm58′s so I ordered 2 of them ($25 each) and I received a very generous gift the week after from one of the followers of this site (I won’t name you…this way no one besides me starts asking you for stuff lol) consisting of 3 Sennheiser e822S Dynamic Hand-Held Vocal Microphone. I used all 3 senn’s and the 2 behr’s which were mostly used for speaking but some singing too, and they all sounded really good. More to come another day about a good comparison….but the things that have really stuck out so far is….
Behringer XM 8500:
excellent gain (I have no gain control on the gigrac mixer)
midpoint in terms of bassy sound
Sennheiser e822S:
the volume needs to be turned up…..a fair bit….(3/4 compared to 1/2 on the sm58)
much less bass (great for any vocal duties) compared to both other mics
sm58:
the bassiest of the bunch
its the 58….what else do I say? lol
Still need to get a condenser one day….but who knows when I’ll finally get one…
The gigrac is a great portable and affordable mixer. The word Workhorse comes to mind. I've had a few people say they use those for outdoor events or events in other parts of their church. Great o hear you love it as well.
You are so right on checking board settings. We had the board-level HPF switched on once. Boy was that a weird mix coming out.
Sounds like you mixed a great one! It's like golf. I might not hit a perfect shot every time…but when I do, I just know it. We had our Christmas program this weekend and everyone was thanked for doing a great job…except for…well, actually, I did get two big thank you's. One was immediately after the program, by the director. The other was by a performer the next day in an email. But in any case, the point I'm trying to make is that when I / you mix a great performance, we just know it and often that's the best feeling of all.
And finally…a huge THANK YOU to the person who gifted you with those microphones. That's a blessing. That's just plain awesome!
Just saw the post regarding new microphones…
We had a bunch of SM58s that were becoming well used. We got one of the new Blue Encore 300s. After the first practice everyone – sound guys and worship leader – wanted more. We had three more within a week. They’re a bit more expensive but well worth it.
We were able to turn the head-amp gains down by 10-12db when using the Encore 300s. Also the frequency response is much flatter that anything else we have tried; makes EQing easier.
We still have the SM58s around for the overflow but our main worship team vocals all are using the Encore 300s. Thank you Blue!
It's so easy to default to the SM58's because of their popularity but you gave the perfect reason people need to be willing to try a different microphone. Thanks for the details.