Behind The Mixer

Learn Church Audio Artistry | Church Sound

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Photo provided by art-sarah

This simple setup is all it takes.
Photo provided by art-sarah

Guitar amps, on the stage, can be a burden for the sound tech.  They can be too loud and even blast out the people who are in front of the guitar’s amplifier.    You can take control of these stage amps and still meet the needs of the musician.

Getting a handle on stage amps isn’t too hard as long as you keep a few things in mind;

  1. Musicians want a specific tone coming from their instruments.
  2. Musicians use their own amps for self-monitoring.
  3. You can gain enough control over stage amps that get the musicians their tone, meets their self-monitoring needs, and gives you the right amount of volume control.

Respect the tone

The tone of their instrument is picked to meet the needs of the song or the preferred sound. An electric guitar patched through the sound system won’t have the same sound as if it was run through their amp.  Guitar amplifiers have tone controls and even the make and model of amp has its own tonal characteristics.  This isn’t to say guitarists should always use amps on the stage.  They can get a lot of tonal controls through pedals and pedal-boards.  My point is you need to respect their decision on the importance of tone.

Self-monitoring

Guitarists, who know what they are doing, will have some sort of amp stand or other means of pointing their amp up at their head.  This is what you want.  If they don’t, you’ve got a bit of work to do because, in those cases, the amp is usually pointed at their knees.  Last I checked, my knees didn’t have the ability to hear sound. Pointing the amp at their head also means less volume is required.

Talk with the musician about angling the amp towards their head. If they question this idea, ask them to play while you point the amplifier at their head. They should be on your side in no time. The proper amplifier angle can be achieved using a commercial amplifier stand or, if you need to get a little creative, one can find free blueprints on the internet for building a cheap custom amp stand. Once the amp stand is in place and pointed properly at the guitarist, have the musician set the amp tone so it’s how they want it.

Note the tone of the amp sounds differently when you are in front of it versus to the side.  In the case of musicians who have been using the wrong setup, they will need to change their tone settings because now, for the first time, they are on-axis with the amp’s speaker(s).

Volume control

Using the proper self-monitoring setup as described above, the musician doesn’t need the same level of volume.  This means you get volume control. It’s time to grab a microphone.

Follow these instructions for setting up a microphone;

  1. Using an instrument microphone, attach it to a small microphone stand and put the head of the microphone about 2 inches from one of the amp’s speaker cones. If you’ve got a Shure SM57, that’s a good one for this type of application.  Note, some amps have more than one speaker so pick one.
  2. Next, set the microphone so it’s pointing at the outer edge of the speaker cone. Listen to how it sounds in the house speakers. Now move the microphone to the near center of the amp speaker and listen in the house speakers. Note the difference between the two sounds. The farther away from the center of the speaker, the more treble you will hear in the amp. You CAN point a mic at the middle of the speaker but the range of frequencies is significantly reduced because of the design. Experiment with several locations on the amplifier’s speaker until you find the spot you like.
  3. Once the amplifier is set up and the microphone is in place, you need to find a volume level on the amplifier that’s loud enough as a monitor but doesn’t blow away everyone on the stage. This might take some trial and error and a little assertive pushing on your part if the musician is used to using their amp as the main volume source. Let them know their only concern is the volume for self-monitoring and that you’ll take care of the house volume.

 

The Take Away

Proper on-stage amp usage is about directionality, proper microphone placement, and on-stage volume control.  Respect the musician’s views on amplifier tone and their needs for self-monitoring.  A common question I get via email concerns controlling guitar amps on the stage.  You can do it.  It just takes a bit of time and the willingness to talk with the guitarist.

Question: What problems have you had with guitar amps on the stage?

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Comments

  1. with an amp on stage, it seems to be a battle between the amp volume and the house volume, which coud result in serious feedback. My question is why not use earbuds instead. We used stage monitors before, and it was a battle controlling the stage volume against the house volume. I have a request from our new musician who wants an amp so he can hear the bass.

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  2. Most people don’t address the elephant in the room. The acoustics of the room itself.
    Normally the process is 1) address the instruments, 2) the sound system/desk/speakers, 3) the miking of the voices & instruments, 4) almost never the room acoustics. What do I mean by that? Physics – Base sounds are very long waves, they bounce around a room forever and create muddiness to the hearer. The reason for this is large round surfaces are required to disperse the bass sound waves so they stop bouncing, otherwise it keeps on bouncing between walls. Not convinced? If the sound is muddy, just cut all the bass and listen if it cleans up.
    You can’t solve it Opera style -> opera houses are designed to kill sound completely so that everyone can hear the singer’s performance. In churches we want the congregation to hear themselves singing with the band. This means you NEED a certain amount of sound to bounce off the wall and reverb back to them as they sing.

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  3. Depending on the acoustics of the building and stage placememt, closed back cabs can be placed in front of the guitarist and pointed back at them without the use of a speaker stand or lower volumes. Closed backs are directional, just make sure you have good sound absorbing material behind the guitarist or it will be a reverb nightmare that throws the whole team off time. Also, make sure the guitarist is at the very back of the stage preferably to one side.

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  4. The problem I have with the sound crew controlling the volume of my amp on stage is they don’t respect my needing to hear my guitar. Because I’m playing rhythm and not lead, my guitar is seen as “flavoring” meant to be heard in the background, this gets translated to the onstage sound, which results in my sound being overwhelmed by the lead (acoustic) and our twin basses (one a standup).

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    • Are you using the amp for monitoring yourself? Is it pointed at your head or your knees? Honestly, is it too loud? Or maybe it’s pointed toward someone who is getting blasted by it. Consider where it’s pointed, who is in line with where it’s pointed and adjust accordingly. At that point, you should be find. It’s ok if some of the amp is heard in the room even with the house speakers turned down. Maybe that’s where the techs are confused.

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      • Amps pointed at my head although its on a low stand so is leaning at a 45o angle. Problem is positioning of the house speakers, at the back of the stage (on the sides) instead of in front. Sound techs, like me are volunteers, and seem to be having some difficulties. I offered to buy your beginner’s guide for everyone but was refused. Problem started when we were using monitors (speakers) and the sound techs were over zealous in their control. We’d get the sound right before service and they’d then turn us down for whatever reasons. since going to an amp (blew the monitor) my sound isn’t going to the amp (the other amps too aren’t getting a signal to the board. I suggested a mic for the amps but that idea too was shot down. Head sound guy isn’t very cooperative and says I have to solve my own sound problems. That’s why I read your blog.

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        • I solved my sound problem (actually no signal to sound board running my electric guitar thru an amp using a passive DI Box) by switching to an active DI Box. Credit has to be given and thanks to the information provided by Chris on his website and the excellent comments. He has risen!

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    • Had an idea I picked up from a church on theater building, they have the base through the PA. Tried this at my small (about 100 people capacity) and it worked as in the theater; very low in the background sound and seeming far away. The connection was through the PA to the monitors and it worked really good then the pastor wanted to to use the base amp as well (to use other monitors) but he ran into connection problems. Then he settled at connecting the base amp to the PA console to the PA speakers….Question: Why did it work w/o the amp at first?
      Anyway, the effect is that now no matter how loud I play my guitar it doesn’t interfere with the base player since it seems the base will be sounding from the walls instead of the amp close by mine. I have two amps for my guitar and my GR 55 connected to the PA and sometimes to my smaller amp as well, that well I can hear the GR55 sounds independently of the PA guys. It is a work in progress and this Friday I will verify the connections and report back here….A professional sound guy is coming this Sunday to teach the PA guys and to set up the sound correctly…hopefully the guitar base interfere wont be a problem!

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  5. Hello
    We recently performed with 3 guitars, 1 bass, 1 drummer. Our amps were 3-4 feet behind us. Most of sing and play.
    During our performance, I was noticing double amplification (the mikes were picking up the guitar amps).
    Any suggestions to try to alleviate this problem?
    Thanks
    Gerry

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    • Always watch for where the amps are pointed and adjust the amps AND the position of the people on the stage to help with this. You can also make/buy absortive panels to block areas.

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    • The mic you’re using could make a difference. SM58’s have a wide pickup pattern and tend to pickup a lot of surrounding sounds. There are pother mics that have tighter patterns with better rejection. I switched a lot of my 58’s to Blue Encore 100’s due to their sound and better rejection.

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    • You might also check the gain on the mics. Lot’s of sound engineers have the gain on the mics rather high because most singers like to hear themselves VERY loudly in their respective monitor mixes, when they really only need to hear enough to make sure they’re on pitch. Turning the gain down on the mics may allow you to boost the signal from the mic channel in the house while making them less sensitive to ambient stage noise.

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  6. Remember when FOH Engineers used to know how to “mix” the sound of the amps and drums on the stage WITH the sound from the house? I saw Joe Bonnamossa at the Verizon theater in Dallas recently, and most of the instrument sound came from the gear on stage. Joe had three amps that he switched between, Bass player (Michael Rhoades, awesome) had an Ashdown 8×10 stack, Keys player (Reese Wynan!!!) had twin Leslie’s running. The mix was FANTASTIC, as the FOH used the house to blend and enhance the stage. I’ve never heard a better mix.
    At the other end of the spectrum, I saw Dream Theater in Denver 2 years ago, everything running direct to the FOH and it was the absolute WORST mix I’ve ever heard. Totally disappointing.

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  7. hi thanks for that ,it backs up what a friend told me about putting a mic near the guitar amp , i am a member of a church and the sound can get very loud especially from the base, god bless

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  8. Nice article Chris but one correction ;

    ” The farther away from the center of the speaker, the more treble you will hear in the amp. ”

    Maybe that was just a typo but it should be pointed out to avoid confusion that the opposite is true. The closer you get to the centre ( cap ) of a speaker the more treble and less bass frequencies there will be. Placing a mic straight ( on axis ) at centre of cap on the grill is the best place to start and then moving outwards to cap edge ( still on grill ) if less treble is required. cheers

    Reply

  9. If I was performing on stage (which I don’t, but want to know set-up) with my current rig (pedal board, Marshall DSL 100h and Fender 85) would monitors be of benefit and if so how are they connected to that kind of rig?

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    • John, you’d make sure your amp was pointed at your head so while it would be miked, it could also serve as a confidence monitor. Then, you’d use a mixer-fed monitor to get your vocals and whatever else you wanted.

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  10. I have a Mesa Nomad 45 that I absolutely love the tone I get to come out of it. The issue it, it’s a very loud amp and is often in the opinion of other’s on the stage and the engineer. It is a very loud amp and we generally mic it with one of three mics, a 57, a Sennheiser 421, or a Sennheiser e906. Monitoring isn’t an issue as we use IEM’s. I try to be very respectful of everyone and not crank the daylights out of this amp because it’s crazy loud. But I normally only turn it up 20-25%, just to the pint where the tubes break in and once it hits that point it’s too loud. I’ve tried putting it at different angles facing different directions with little to no success. I don’t want to use an attenuation device as I’m afraid with the volume drop I’ll lose some of the low end body that I love having in my tone. There isn’t a “backstage” space that I can put the amp. I’m looking at something like a Auralex or Monoprice mic Isolator that is a wall with audio foam on the inside. Any thoughts on if this would work or any idea’s to get the stage volume down while still keeping my amp and tone?

    Thanks everyone!

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  11. Just a thought on low watt amps. For those of you who just do sound and are not guitar players… Low watt amps generally do not sound all that great. The led zeppelin example is really an isolated example of what you can do with a low watt amp and a million dollars sound studio. It’s not the same situation at church.
    If you are going for one tone on rhythm guitar maybe it would work but church guitarist are not generally that lucky. I need reverbs, delays, tremolos, and a few over drives. Why… Because I can’t turn up my amp to 11 and I need to achieve ten different sounds in a 5 song set.

    The original post is great.
    Using an amp as a monitor and keeping it pointed up is a great method.

    Just to repeat my prior post, using a speaker simulator (not a DI) like a Palmer PDI-09 or 03 into a attenuator is a great and cheap way to get great consistent tone and make everyone happy.

    I run out my speaker output into the Palmer… Into the attenuator… Into the speaker.

    This way my out signal to FOH is however loud I want my amp… But then I tame it with the attenuator.

    Works great.

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    • Hi Jeremy,
      I’m not sure where you’re getting your information but as a general statement you might have a point if you’re talking about some solid state amps. However, low wattage tube amps are widely known to have fantastic tone. Brad Paisley comes to mind as he uses DR. Z Wreck tube amps that are only 30 watts yet he has amazing tone. While his playing style certainly contributes to that the amp is still a primary source of his great tone. In my 27 years as an engineer I have recorded and run live sound with hundreds of different amps and can tell you with absolute certainty that low wattage tube amps work better in most situations than any other class or style of amp. Unless you are doing a heavy rock or metal live show the need for huge stacks to get great tone is just not there. It’s just not necessary. As a matter of fact the high wattage tube amp can often work against you if you aren’t in a large venue situation. I hope this helps. God Bless.

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      • Hey man,

        I am sorry. By “low” watt I mean 10 watts or less. The recent 5 watt craze is sad in that I have yet to play any 5 watt amp that sounds great.

        I love brad paisleys tone and 30 watts in a church is not a low powered amp. That’s about as powered as if ever want.

        I typically use an ac15 and generally can’t turn it up past 2. But that sounds better than the ac4 turned up louder.

        I am often asked why I can’t use an AC4 and I’m given the same led zeppelin story from some ignorant sound guy who read a magazine once. It’s frustrating when you putso much energy and time into getting your tone dialed in… Only to be “educated” by some sound guy as to what te right way of doing something is.

        I get my information from 20 years of playing guitars, amps, hundreds of pedals, and 15 years of dealing with know it all church sound guys.

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        • Those 5 watt or even 1 watt Marshall’s may get one ok sound if you dial it in right… But once you add pedals they fall apart. I haven’t found an amp less than 12 watts that holds together well when you use lots of pedals. That was a fender blues junior.

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      • David, I agree with Jeremy on this one. Different players will have different preferences, of course, But much like Jeremy, I’ve never played an amp under 10 watts or so that did it for me (I don’t consider 30 watts to be low power. Dr. Z amps are rated conservatively anyways, and those Z-Wrecks are LOUD). If I need to play a 5-watt amp, I would rather just simplify things by losing the amp altogether and running direct.

        My beef with very low-watt amps, is they just seem to lose so much body and fullness. With the smaller transformers, you lose a lot of low-end punch. Some guitarists don’t mind this. But I love a nice fat sound, with a tight low-end that doesn’t getting “farty”. I like to be able to feel my amp respond and move some air. Wiith really low-watt amps, this kind of response is quite limited. This is also the reason I prefer an amp on stage near me, as opposed to running direct, or even housing an amp in an iso box or storing it in an off-stage closet. Like I said, if that’s a compromise I have to make in order to allow the sound techs to control house sound, I’d rather just not fool with the extra hassle and simply run direct, which is what I do at my church now through a Line 6 HD500x. I’m not in love with the HD500’s tone, but my ideal live set up just isn’t realistic for my church, so it’s a compromise I can live with. To me, it’s not worth being a diva about it, because the vast majority of people in attendance on Sunday morning can’t tell the difference anyways and don’t care.

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    • Different guitarists simply have different life experiences Jeremy.

      I am more often guitarist than sound tech these days and have been doing both for a very long time (since 1969). I prefer to run through a small amp onstage, pointed at my head with the volume down low. I have had great success using both 5w Fender Champ and 7w Orange TT tube amps along with all my effects pedals to get my tone. Others may not be able to find their tone this way though and need a different setup. Sometimes I will bring the Mesa, run a “cab voiced” line output to the board and run silently onstage, but then I am dependent on the Aviom mix to hear my guitar. These are my preferences for a well controlled worship service.

      When playing out at a street fair or community event with my rock band, I prefer to turn up the amp to match the drum levels. This much sound doesn’t work well in a worship service though and causes friction between worship team and sound techs which is never conducive to team building within the church.

      One of our other guitarists only plays through a Fender Twin and we isolate it offstage so he can let that loud beast run. Another one uses a Matchless 100w head and we isolate just his cab for the same reason.

      When running sound I like to be flexible with guitarists and always offer one of these choices so they will be comfortable with their setup. A small amp onstage pointed at their head, big amp in isolation, or Digital Multi Effects running direct. Pick your poison and it doesn’t matter which one they choose. If they are happy with their tone and I can control stage volume levels, everyone is happy and we will work together well.

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  12. Have a line six 150 watt guitar amp. when I play with tone up the speakers on my home stereo buzz it sounds as if coming from the amp until I moved close to the TV. Also at church when upping the volume due to other instruments the same buzz happened. How can I eliminate my amp interfering with other resonance surfaces?
    Thanks,Tio

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  13. Another simple solution is using a Palmer speaker simulator (PDI-09) and a weber attenuator.

    I run out my amps output jack to the Palmer which acts a a speaker simulator and a DI. The output goes to the board and the line thru goes to my attenuator. The attenuator is next and has the Palmer in the input and the amp speakers in the output.

    This allows me to turn up my amp as loud as I want for the tone I seek. That signal goes to the board and because of the Palmer sounds wonderful.

    The attenuator then acts as a volume allowing me to turn down so I am not overpowering the stage or church.

    If I am running in ears I use the attenuator to turn the amp speaker all the way off.

    It works really well and sounds amazing. It’s far more consistent tone than trying to mic the same place every week.

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  14. Running an acoustic guitar through a DI box usually works just fine as long as you can get enough in your monitor to hear yourself. Running an electric guitar through a DI box without a digital multi effects in the signal path usually sounds really weak and lame. I always prefer a close personal monitor that I control so I can hear myself and I encourage guitarists to do this when I run sound. If you need this, talk to your worship leader and let them explain it to the sound tech who may simply not understand your needs.

    We have sound techs that have audio engineering degrees and international tour experience al the way down to the guy just starting out on his first live worship set. Hopefully there is training and mentoring going on, but sometimes a sound tech simply does not understand the needs of a musician. Sometimes a musician does not understand the needs of a sound tech and this can create conflict. Working through chain of command usually helps.

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  15. Hi! I’m a guitarist and have asked to use my small Fender Champ 20 as my personal sound monitor – instead of being put straight through the sound desk and ending up in a fold-back along with the singers et al. This is causing the sound guy problems as he says it is better straight through the system – even though I cannot then use the tones etc from my amp. I pointed out that the bass guitar has it’s own amp and then goes through the system and I’m told ‘that’s different’!
    Why is it such a big deal to use a small amp as a personal fold-back and then be put through the system? Is it better to mike the amp or to use a DI box – if a DI box is there a particular one?
    Thanks, D

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    • You should be allowed to use your amp as a personal monitor as long as you have it pointed at your head and the volume doesn’t destroy the house mix when the full band plays. And as long as the amp is pointed at your head, that shouldn’t be a problem. I’ve used that very setup for years with guitarists. Then I mic the amp with a Shure SM57 and all is good. Not sure why the tech would say that. Might be a bad experience or they have never done it that way.

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    • using the amp as a personal monitor is something i do a lot.
      Things to consider are placement and phase.
      The amp has to point at your ears, from the front or front side, otherwise you’ll need to crank the volume too high.
      Most cabinets i’ve worked with have significant out of phase radiation from the rear of the cabinet – this can play havok with the FOH unless you are careful.
      the only reason i can think of for not wanting to do it is because the pattern from the cabinet may be nowhere near as tight as for a dedicated foldback and it might muddy up the rest of the stage mics? What reason does the engineer give?
      If you have a lovely amp, then a lovely mic in front of it plus a DI gives the most options for the FOH mix, if you have a terrible amp, then DI (post your tone controls) all the way.

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  16. I hear from guitarists this line “it’s a tube amp, and so I need to turn it up loud for it to sound good”. I wish I had some sort of box I could put the amp in so they could their tone without the volume.

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    • Chuck, that’s where isolation cabinets come into play. Darn shame they are so expensive. Just the other week, the other audio tech at my church was telling me what he did for a service – moved the amp back-stage with the mic and pointed it at a wall. Parallel to that wall is our huge stage curtain. Not only could get get the tone but that curtain kept much of the amp sound from washing on stage. Be creative!

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    • This is a concern sound techs need to understand and respect. Most avid electric guitar players love tube amps. With the exception of, perhaps, the most state-of-the-art (read: EXPENSIVE) digital modeling technology, tube amps just sound better. And the tone characteristics of tube amps change significantly as the volume increases. They are designed to sound better the more you push the power amp tubes, much to the annoyance of the sound techs trying to control the house mix. There are a few practical solutions to this problem, two of which Chris has already mentioned (putting the amp in an isolation box, or moving it to a different room entirely). Another solution is using a low-power tube amp. That way the guitarist can crank it up and push those tubes without producing a deafening amount of volume. Unfortunately, even of a 5 watt tube amp can produce a significant amount of stage volume when it’s really cranked up. But with the lower-powered amps, sometimes the stage volume can be controlled simply by placing it behind a plexi-glass shield, angling it up towards the player, or turning it around to face away from the audience.

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  17. We use basic avioms and the only “rule” is that the amp (or drum kit) cannot dominate the stage or room. Everybody from the lead pastor to the worhisp leader to the tech director is onboard and vocal about this value. We’ve been very sucessful using amp sims/ PODS or smaller wattage amps off stage. the guitarist monitors usually thru an IEM or a wedge so they actually hear what the audience hears with respect to the microphone. It’s definitely a team effort to get the best mix for the room. I promote the idea of being a “musician who plays a guitar” as opposed to the “guitarist”. Everyone has personal needs and preferences but everyone contributes to the worship experience and that trumps individual preferences every time. If the artist has a pressing need to use the amp as a personal monitor, then it’s possible that they either don’t trust the IEMs, wedges, and/or sound tech or they possibly have an unhealthy need to dominate the stage with their contribution.

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  18. Great advice about angling the amplifier back so that the sound is directed upward to the player’s ears. Having initially looked at different amp stands (and even considered making my own), I have been using the Ultimate Support Amp-150 Genesis Amp Stand for a few years now. This stand can be set at 3 different angles of tilt, and the riser has a threaded mic mount ready to accommodate a baby boom, making a separate mic stand unnecessary. Info and photos:

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    • Alan, thanks for comment on the Genesis Amp Stand. That is sweeeeeet! I love the different angles, something I don’t see in many amp stands.

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  19. With IEM use becoming so prevalent, and amp simulation getting so good for such little money, there really needs to be an article or two addressing elimination of amps altogether.
    Before the guitar players rise up in protest to this ‘sound guy who just doesn’t get it’, I’m an electric player most of the time, bass player some time, and keyboard player as well. I also run FOH mix and have done so for nearly 30 years in venues as varied as little 100 seat churches with 20 persons present (with the band making up 7 of the 20!) to a half-time and post game 120 voice choral concert at a Detroit Pistons game in the Pontiac Silverdome and just about everything in-between. I also teach live audio for a company that helps churches that are meeting in rented facilities each week. When the guitarist shows up with an amp simulator/multi-FX, it is very rare when that is the problem source of getting a good FOH mix to help the attendees put on their worship performance for God. When the guitar/bass players show up with amps of any size – it’s almost a guarantee there is going to be lots of time devoted to isolating the volume from the cabinet, and getting it at a level that is acceptable to the musician. Here’s my opinion – the subtlety that you might hear between your real Twin Reverb, and a simulation – is not going to be noticed by the people in the seats that are putting on the performance for God. Maybe that should be noted also here. The roles of the musicians/worship/tech team are as prompters. God is the audience, the people attending are in reality the performers for God. When we assume a different role, whether as the worship/tech team or as the attendees of a worship service, that’s when things go bad. As an instrumentalist/vocalist, if we get it in our head that we are the performer – then that’s when we get all picky because, hey, people are there to see/hear us. As attendees, when we think we are the ‘audience’ that’s when we get picky about which songs are used, style, volume, what arrangement is used, etc. Attention is placed in the wrong place instead of on collectively worshiping God.

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    • I hear ya, and yet when Shane and Shane and Phil Wickham came to do worship at our church last month they brought a half stack on stage. The sound was good,
      the guitars were well-controlled and it was done carefully and tastefully. I’m not ready to ban Amplifiers from the stage just yet.

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    • There is a lot to say about this subject. You are right that it is more work with amps on stage, but it’s never impossible. I think key is to use low wattage amps, and direct to musician as described in the article. In ear monitors might make a great difference as well, as you then can reduce volume on amp. I think however that sound engineers should respect guitarists’ choice of gear, as there is a lot of the time a thought behind it. Obviously, sometimes compromises have to be made…it’s all about teamwork . As a guitarists myself I definitely prefer using an amp, although I have both amps and virtual amps. If we are worshipping God, shouldn’t we make the greatest effort to do it the best way we can rather than settle for something that you might think sound ok at best?

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    • I really don’t want to offend anybody but I need to be honest here.

      I been a musician for 40 years, playing guitar 35 years and have been an audio engineer for 27 years both in the studio and live sound. I have used every amp sim plug in available and have tried most hardware amps including owning several Line 6 products from pods, pod pro, m13, m9, and 2 Vetta Amps. I have been exposed to most other amp sims from either trying them in stores or clients bringing them into my studio. I’ve also compared tube amps side by side with modeling amps.

      Now for the honesty part…if you are an audio engineer and can’t hear a noticeable difference between a real tube amp and an amp sim you need some ear training. I’m very sorry if this offends you but I need to speak the truth here. As much as people hate Simon Cowell he speaks the truth and says what people need to hear whether they like it or not. And that is necessary in a place like this where everyone strives t be a professional in their field.

      There are far too many live sound techs that need help in this area and are doing nothing to improve their listening skills. I’ve attended many services as a part of the congregation where sound was not up to par and herd the sound techs talking about how good they thought it sounded. Out of politeness I didn’t burst their bubble but it’s indicative of the problem. Just because you’ve done it for years doesn’t mean you’re an expert or have advanced skills. (The same is true for musicians) The question is have you improved your knowledge and listening skills? Even after 27 years of engineering I do ear training exercises several times a week for 2+ hours every time. I also red a lot to increase my knowledge. I would suggest that every engineer should download Harman’s “How to Listen” ear training program and use it religiously. It’s just one of many tools I use for ear training but is probably the best. (And it’s fun) If you are running sound you need to get to a minimum of level 7 asap with level 10 or above as a better goal. Your hearing is a learned skill that requires practice just like playing an instrument. The Harman program is free and easy to find with a google search. Most musicians have far more time and expertise with their chosen instrument than your average tech has with sound gear. I’ve been in worship bands with A-list players who were held back by sound techs. Some fresh out of school who weren’t ready for the role they had to take on or a more mature tech who wasn’t flexible enough to address the bands needs. Both ways it often hindered the band which ultimately affected the worship for everyone as well.

      Before a sound tech dismisses a guitar players wish to use his amp he should understand that the amp is part of his instrument. He should also understand the same applies to drummers who complain about the sound of the kits. Just because a tech doesn’t hear what they hear doesn’t mean he should just dismiss their observations as one commentator did. Especially when it comes from more than one musician.

      Getting back to the amp vs Amp Sim …Part of the difference is not just the digital sterility of the amp sim but also how the amp responds to your playing. And part of that is also how the guitar pickups interplay with the amp by being next to it. But more so a “good” tube amp has a symbiotic relationship with the guitar and it responds dynamically to your playing with a tone that many guitar players find very inspiring. This in turn affects our playing including the emotional connection the playing brings to the congregation. So when you dig into the strings it gives a sweet driving breakup tone and when you play softer it cleans up naturally and smooths out. As good as amp sims have gotten I have yet to hear one that gets this part right. I like and use amp sims for some applications like creating a wide stereo double track from a DI recording. However, I would never use an amp sim as the primary guitar tone. As good as they are they still aren’t there. (Ditto on electronic or sampled drums – but that’s another article)

      When it comes to amps it may be a good investment for the church to purchase a lower wattage amp that could be a good compromise if the guitarist only has a larger amp or stack. I personal love the tone of the Mesa/Boogie Express Plus which is quite versatile and very affordable. I have 3 very good tube amps including a Marshall JVM but the Mesa is by far the best choice for worship. I have the 5:50 but the 5:25 is also very good. Both versions have switchable wattage so you can lower the power and drive the tubes without peeling the paint. the 5:50 has 50, 25, or 5 watts while the 5:25 has 25,15,or 5 watts. I actually prefer the middle setting on both amps because the 5 watt setting changes the tone more than I like. The great thing is you can get great sound with a very reasonable stage volume.

      One last thing, I think is relevant and interesting…Daniel Carson who plays guitar for Chris Tomlin used 2 amps when live and runs them in stereo. They are usually at the rear of the stage facing backwards. They also run their IEM’s in stereo which has many benefits. BTW,Tomlin’s band and the sound techs work closely together as a worship team and seek to help each other in a true spirit of cooperation.

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  20. I have a Blackstar Venue Series Ht Stage (60W) amp. I have it for 2 1/2 years and play it at different churches 2-3 times a week. I have a good amount of pedals and use the 4 cable method with the fx loop. Works great. a stand out feature worth mentioning is that if you turn the amp on and “don’t” flip the standby switch you can still use the emulated out. This is a great feature as we use in ear monitors and dont want amps blazing on stage so my tone still goes thru the amp then direct out straight to the front of house without the speakers on. We were going to build isolation boxes but now don’t have to. The only gripe I have is, I wish the footswitch jack for channel switching and reverb used a regular trs cable instead of the cable it comes with but other than that I am happy. Oh and I changed out the stock tubes for JJ’s which I highly recommend. I was gonna change out the speakers to vintage 30’s but since I’m going direct there is no need to!

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  21. this is one of my biggest issues, after insane drummers. i work with musicians who do a lot of solo gigging, and it is SO hard to get them to let go of the need to saturate the room with their own amp (and generally, their own budget amp). having hte amp behind the musician at all is an issue – as you get bleed into all the mics, and the ear is not so good at hearing from the back. i prefer having the amp to the side or in front, (with the phase of the mic signal reversed) pointing directly at the guitarist’s ears. both help minimise the signal reaching the other microphones.
    it can be pretty hard though, simply because of the ego issue.

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  22. “Be aware that the center of the speaker doesn’t produce sound waves, so don’t point the microphone there.”

    Can you please expand upon this statement? As an A/V tech, audio engineer, and amateur speaker builder, I have never heard anyone say this before.

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    • Xander, thanks for your comment. I should have phrased that differently – I’ll update the article. You CAN point a mic at the middle of the speaker but the range of frequencies is significantly reduced because of the design. If you check my twitter feed, I think I posted up a video link which demonstrated this…but I’m guessing that’s something you already know.

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  23. We’ve gone through just about every situation since I came to this church 8 years ago. We went from amps on stage to playing through just pedals, to playing through pedals into an amp simulator etc. Then back to playing through the amps again. Granted out auditorium is 4400 seats and large but even the smallest guitar amp cranked up a little bit caused issues. So after a ton of research and phone calls I settled on the Rivera Silent Sister Iso cabinets. I have loaded them with Celestion vintage 30’s. These cabinets are awesome because Rivera has ported them so that they actually breathe very well and the mics and speakers can move freely like they are supposed to. I stash them on the back corner of the stage and run the guitar players pedal boards to them via Radial SGI Tx/Rx boxes. All we do is have the guitar players bring in thier combo amp or head and plug them in to the cabinet. On the combo amps we just unplug the internal speaker. Everyone is very pleased with them and they sound great. They do tend to make the open back combos sound a little more like a closed back. We have even had a couple of national acts come through and end up using and liking the setup. Good Iso cabs make a huge difference. And yes they are not that cheap but I couldn’t have built them myself for the money.

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    • Jason, thanks for the details of what you’ve gone through before getting the iso cab’s. Great that you could make an investment in the iso cab’s. I’ve seen a couple of DIY cab’s and they weren’t that good. It’s hard to beat a professionally made iso cab.

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  24. Maybe this is the guitarist in my here, but I just don’t see this setup working. The volume of my amp isn’t based on my ability to hear it, but rather the tone that volume creates on a tube amp. I’m sure an amp guy could give more technical specs, but I just can’t get the same tone at a lower volume. Not to mention moving my volume on my amp throws off the gain to volume ration on several pedals.

    My money is on isolating and cranking. You get MUCH better tone. And though you won’t get your actually amp as a monitor, you’re final tone will be MUCH better, both in your in-ears and in the house.

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    • LOL – why did I know someone would mention tube amps!?! You are right in that the tone isn’t the same. And yes, an isolation cabinet would work best in that situation but iso cab’s aren’t cheap. But what about a cranked amp that’s so loud that it overpowers the rest of the mix in the house? That’s when the musician has a responsibility to the congregation. And that’s the point I was trying to make.

      Iso cab’s – use ’em if ya got ’em

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    • I’d say it is very amp dependent on a case by case basis. From personal experience, my Mesa and Orange sound great turned down low volume, and placed up close to the guitar due to their modern gain structure. My 64 Super Reverb needs to be cranked up in isolation. Different approaches to make the most of each situation and achieve excellent guitar tone. No one perfect answer so I prefer to allow the guitarist to choose his favored method within the constraints of our church setting.

      Example: Led Zeppelin I & II Huge guitar tone, tiny 50s Valco amp in the studio. For many Pros, the lowly 3w Fender Champ is the ticket to massive guitar tone when mic’d in the studio.
      http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/10-huge-sounds-recorded-521.aspx

      Disclaimer: One guitarist/sound techs opinion. Others will surely disagree;)

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    • this begs the question of WHY the guitarist has an amp that can fill a stadium? it just makes every single other persons job harder. if the PA person turned up with a PA that only sounded good when turned up so loud the roof fell down, people would complain. If the drummer HAD to be hitting the kick so hard that it saturated every vocal mic, people would complain. there are choices, and the choice to NEED a huge amp is one not based on musicality, imo.

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    • Oh finally someone who knows what they’re talking about. We just began using amplifiers at church and already the tone quality from the electric guitars has improved 100 fold. I do however wish to crank my amp a littleouder to achieve the tone I want. For this, I’ll have to put my amp off stage.

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      • An alternative to using an iso box or placing the loudspeaker in a room off-stage is to use a power soak, such as the THD Hot Plate or the Air Brake. This little box connects between the power amp output and the speaker cabinet input, allowing the amp to be run at high power settings to achieve the tone you want (via the generation of distortion and compression), while reducing the power that gets passed on to the speaker. Most units have switchable attenuation settings, so you can achieve a workable balance between the audio power level and the sound level produced by the loudspeaker. Of course, this eliminates any effects you might achieve from tearing up the loudspeaker itself, but it will get you at least 95% of the way to where you want to go with your rig.

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  25. Off stage is a great option especially when running 30+ watt tube amps (Vox AC30, Divide by 13, Mesa Boogie, Orange AD30, etc…). The trouble with setting volume on stage is that the volume at which tube amps of this size sound good could easily fill a 800+ person auditorium. So off stage is a good option, we are currently running our amps off stage in the green room. This is a good solution especially if you have amps that run separate heads from the cab. This means that the player still has tone control over his amp while plugged into his rig and ears. The trouble with off stage amps is when you don’t have a separate head you lose control. Even smaller <15 watt amps like the Orange Tiny Terror or AC15 are better for leaving on stage while running at lower volume but still running at a volume that has good tone. But the less stage volume the better, period.

    What we're working on doing right now and I saw done at another church in the area is cutting holes in your stage to create isolation boxes. The underside of your stage is a giant Box, many stages are 2-4 inches thick and have insulation. This means they are really good at killing volume. Cut a hole between studs (32×20) is a good size, turn the cut out piece of stage into a lid with handles and a whole to run cables out of. Throw a dedicated mic and stand in each whole with power and an instrument cable to run to pedal boards.

    You can run 30+ watt amps at almost full volume an when you turn off your mains you hear maybe 60-70 db of volume. I realize this doesn't help the self-monitoring problem. It doesn't matter for us, we have an Aviom system, but if you have monitors it still shouldn't be a problem.

    Here is the thing for me, It's my Job to make our church sound as best as I can, so our drums are tuned a certain way and we use certain symbols because that's what sounds good. I've had drummers tell me the hate how our kit sounds, I don't care, it does sound good, they just want it to sound like an 80's butt rock kit. A while ago we told all our musicians that they have to use Avioms. No more Monitors, time to get use to a new way of doing things. People (worship pastor included) were unsure but now love or are getting use to them. For guitars our guitar players are told they have to have their guitars off stage (and soon in the stage holes). We honestly haven't had much fight one this, we have some great guitars player who understand and support the decision.

    To the Ken I would say you need to be diplomatic with this player if he really wants it on stage, but work with him, listen to his concerns, and have a dialogue with him on how his concerns can be alleviated by your solution.

    I'm sure not all churches have some of the luxuries we do, and can't do this but It's my job to make it sound good, and the musicians job to play well. I tell them to put their Amps in certain places because it is what will sound best and allow them to get the best tone. Some of it is building trust with your musicians. Helping them understanding the sound guy as an expert in their field (theoretically), just as much as the band members are experts in music (theoretically). We all are working together, it's not the Band vs. the Sound Engineer. If your church is anything like ours good guitar players (Lead Gtr especially) are few and far between, so the last thing we want is to alienate these players.

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  26. The interaction between speakers, strings and tonewoods is certainly an important part of the electric guitar sound. That is why Jimi stood in front of three full Marshall stacks at Woodstock in 1969. But we aren’t in front of 500,000 people at Woodstock in ’69, this is Contemporary Christian worship music in a church. A keen sense of scale and perspective is important ;) Top recording artists around the world know they can get fantastic, huge guitar tone with a small 1-5w amp in close proximity, properly mic’d. The closer the amp is to the guitar, the better the sonic interaction, the better the tone. Once a guitarist really gets up close and personal with his amp, volume wars tend to solve themselves and stage volume is kept well under control.

    If a guitarist simply “must” turn up loud, run his speaker to an isolation box offstage and mic it there. He will lose the sonic interaction but run at a level he is accustomed to. It is after all, their instrument to play. We usually give them a choice and honor their decision without passing judgement: Quality small amp very near and pointed directly at you, or large amp in isolation offstage. We can get good results and control the soundstage with either choice.

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  27. One thing that’s worth trying is to have the guitar amp in front of the player pointing up at them insteAd of behind or to the side. They’ll get better sound at lower volume.

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    • Ken, the best bet is using an isolation cabinet. I’ve outlined the equipment you’d need in this post, Moving the Guitar Amp Off Stage. Essentially, you place the amp off-stage in a sound-proof box and you mic the amp inside the box. I will add to that if the marshall has a separate head unit, then the head unit can stay on the stage so they can still modify the tone but the amp volume is still controlled by you. Also, a healthy dose of “you are serving the congregation” might help the musician. :)

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